World City

Doreen Massey once wrote that “it is (or ought to be) impossible even to begin thinking about Kilburn High Road without bringing into play half the world and a considerable amount of British imperialist history.” In this episode, urban sociologist Emma Jackson joins us to unpack London’s entanglements with places elsewhere. 

London’s imperialist and colonialist legacies are evident not only on the city’s streets, but also reach behind closed doors: into our classrooms, living rooms, offices, shops, and hospital wards. We speak to sociologist Yasmin Gunaratnam to discuss these lasting bonds. 

In her book World City, Doreen Massey asks: what does London stand for? We’d love to hear your responses to her question. What does London mean to you? What are your experiences of the city? Please share your thoughts with us via this form.

Episode Credits 

Host:  Agata Lisiak
Co-host: Emma Jackson
Guest: Yasmin Gunaratnam
Also Featured: Doreen Massey
Writer and Producer: Agata Lisiak
Senior Editor: Susan Stone 
Sound Producer: Reece Cox
Production Assistant: Adèle Martin
Music: Studio R
Artwork: Bose Sarmiento
Special Thanks: Serpentine Gallery  
In partnership with: The Sociological Review Foundation
Funded by: Volkswagen Foundation

Find more about Spatial Delight at The Sociological Review. 

Doreen Massey’s work quoted in this episode:

A Global Sense of Place, Marxism Today, 1991
World City (Wiley, 2007)
Doreen Massey interviewed at London’s Serpentine Gallery, 2006

Also mentioned:

Young Homeless People and Urban Space: Fixed in Mobility, Emma Jackson (Routledge, 2015)
Bowling Together – Emma Jackson’s research project exploring leisure practices and urban change through the site of a London bowling alley
Death and the Migrant: Bodies, Borders and Care, Yasmin Gunaratnam (Bloomsbury, 2013)
Go home? The politics of immigration controversies, Yasmin Gunaratnam, Emma Jackson, Gargi Bhattacharyya, William Davies, Sukhwant Dhaliwal, Kirsten Forkert, Hannah Jones and Roiyah Saltus (Manchester University Press, 2017)
A perverse subsidy: African trained nurses and doctors in the NHS, Maureen Mackintosh, Parvati Raghuram and Leroi Henry, Soundings 34 (2006).
The Migrant’s Paradox: Street Livelihoods and Marginal Citizenship in Britain, Suzanne M. Hall (University of Minnesota Press, 2021)
Artistic and Intellectual Hospitality, Yasmin Gunaratnam and Fataneh Farahani, Discover Society, 2020

Transcript

Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey: 0:04

"There is a buzz about London, as about so many big cities. As well as draining you, utterly, as you battle through crowded tubes and buses and grimly negotiate the hubbub, it returns that lost energy to you.... And London is enriched now with an increased cultural diversity, and a sense that the city is going places."

Agata Lisiak: 0:31

Hello and welcome to Spatial Delight, a podcast about the politics of space inspired by the life and work of geographer Doreen Massey. I'm your host Agata Lisiak, Associate Professor of Migration Studies at Bard College Berlin. In our previous episode, we talked about geographical imaginations. In this one we'll focus on cities. Well, one city

in particular: 0:56

Doreen Massey's adopted home of London. We'll discuss what makes London a world city, unpack its connections with some key places elsewhere, and examine how it continues to be shaped by various forms of colonialism and imperialism. We'll hear from a range of Londoners as well as Professor Yasmin Gunaratnam, a sociologist at King's College London and Massey's former colleague at the Open University. But first, let me

introduce my co-host for this episode: 1:26

Dr. Emma Jackson. Emma is an urban sociologist and ethnographer at Goldsmiths, University of London. She's the author of a book titled Young Homeless

People in Urban Space: 1:38

Fixed in Mobility and the creator of Bowling Together, a research project exploring leisure practices and urban change through the site of a London bowling alley. I travelled to London to meet with Emma on a very ordinary and yet special street. Hi, Emma! Thanks for joining me.

Emma Jackson: 2:01

Hi, thanks for having me.

Agata Lisiak: 2:02

Emma and I are at Kilburn Laundrette on Kilburn High Road, a North London street that is the commercial centre of Doreen Massey's old neighbourhood. This is where she did her laundry and her shopping and many other things. This is also where she felt inspired to think about the innumerable connections that bind local places to elsewhere in the world. It's an ordinary street in a multicultural metropolis. Let's hear from Emma what Massey wrote about it some thirty years ago in an essay titled "A Global Sense of Place".

Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey: 2:37

"It is a pretty ordinary place, north-west of the centre of London. Under the railway bridge, the newspaper stand sells papers from every county of what my neighbours, many of whom come from there, still often call the Irish Free State. The postboxes down the High Road and many an empty space on the wall are adorned with the letters IRA. Other available spaces are plastered this week with posters

for a special meeting in remembrance: 3:05

Ten Years after the Hunger Strike. In two shops, I noticed this week's lottery ticket

winners: 3:14

in one the name is Teresa Gleeson, in the other, Chouman Hassan. Thread your way through the often almost stationary traffic diagonally across the road from the newsstand and there's a shop which as long as I can remember has displayed saris in the window. Four life-sized models of Indian women, and reams of cloth. On the door a notice announces a forthcoming

concert at Wembley Arena: 3:40

Anand Miland presents Rekha, live, with Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Jahi Chawla and Raveena Tandon. On another ad, for the end of the month, is written, 'All Hindus are cordially invited'. In another newsagents I chat with a man who keeps it, a Muslim unutterably depressed by events in the Gulf, silently chafing at having to sell the Sun. Overhead there is always at least one aeroplane - we seem to be on a flight path to Heathrow - and by the time they're over Kilburn you can see them clearly enough to tell the airline and wonder, as you struggle with your shopping, where they're coming from. Below, the reason the traffic is snarled up ... is in part because this is one of the major entrances to and escape routes from London, the road to Staples Corner and the beginning of the M1 to 'the North'. This is just the beginnings of a sketch from immediate impressions, but a proper analysis could be done of the links between Kilburn and the world. And so it could for almost any place. Kilburn is a place for which I have a great affection; I have lived there many years. It certainly has 'a character of its own'. But it is possible to feel all this without subscribing to any of the static and defensive - and in that sense reactionary - notions of place. First, while Kilburn may have a character of its own, it is absolutely not a seamless, coherent identity, a single sense of place which everyone shares. It could hardly be less so. People's routes through the place, their favourite haunts within it, the connections they make (physically or by phone or post, or in memory and imagination) between here and the rest of the world vary enormously. If it is now recognised that people have multiple identities then the same point can be made in relation to places. Moreover, such multiple identities can either be a source of richness, or a source of conflict, or both."

Agata Lisiak: 5:57

We followed Doreen Massey's footsteps down Kilburn High Road. The street has changed since 1991. The Irish Times is still sold at the local newsstand, but there's no more graffiti expressing support for the IRA. Instead, we saw a call to FREE PALESTINE written in black paint over the railway bridge.

Emma Jackson: 6:18

We didn't spot any saris for sale, but we saw a few shops selling hijabs and abayas.

Agata Lisiak: 6:24

There's also a Polish store and a cool looking tattoo studio.

Emma Jackson: 6:28

None of the changes we saw seem accidental, but reflects migration patterns and transformations in London's economy.

Agata Lisiak: 6:36

It's like what John Allen said in our previous

episode: 6:38

"when things change elsewhere, Kilburn changes".

Emma Jackson: 6:42

Yeah, but the general feeling of cultural richness that Massey talks about is still palpable, and it's not just our impression. We spoke to some people on Kilburn high road, and here's what they said about the street.

Nathan Queeley-Dennis: 6:54

My name is Nathan Queeley-Dennis and I am an actor, currently working at the Kiln Theatre in Kilburn. My knowing Kilburn, I've known of the Kiln Theatre for a very long time as an actor. Since I've been at drama school, I've been aware of it. But Kilburn as an area - I've not known much of it. I'm not from London. I'm from Birmingham. So I've not known a lot about Kilburn, I've seen it on the maps, I've seen on the tube station maps and overground stations and things but I've never had a chance to actually like be within the area.

Emma Jackson: 7:23

And what are your first impressions of Kilburn High Road?

Nathan Queeley-Dennis: 7:26

I really like it. I like, I love coming to places that remind me of where I'm from and home, and the kind of like cultural diversity, the fact that like outside now, you know, you've got like a Greek restaurant, you've got Lebanese restaurants, you've got Thai, you've got like a Nando's, you've got a pub that looks like it's been here since 1898. And then just that all mixed in with a really like, nice sense of community, it reminds me of where I grew up. And I, I always try to, when I'm living in London, I always try to live in areas or exist in areas of London that remind me of that rather than the more, I guess, gentrified kind of areas that maybe don't feel like they have as much of a soul or a heart.

Agata Lisiak: 8:14

So Nathan feels that Kilburn is a welcoming place. That's also what we heard from Taylor.

Taylor: 8:21

So my name is Taylor. I usually come to Kilburn mainly because I study here at ICMP for music performance. And I'm currently in my second year so I've been here around two years, but I've also, I've got to know Kilburn a few years ago as well when I was like 16, just from visiting here a bit a few times. And from my take on it, it seems to be quite a nice area, quite chilled out. There's a lot of, like, really nice food places around as well. The people that I've met around the area have been really great as well. So it seems like a really nice kind of friendly, almost like kind of vibrant area, I'd say.

Emma Jackson: 9:03

This all sounds very inviting. And Massey's own account of Kilburn is very positive too, but she doesn't over-romanticise it. She admitted that "there is, indeed, much to delight in", but she was also very aware of the tensions. Muhib, a longtime resident, is concerned by the recent transformations of the neighbourhood, especially around Kilburn Market where he works.

Muhib: 9:28

My name is Muhib, I've been living in this area for almost 42 years. And you know, the people change, the atmosphere change, Kilburn change, unfortunately for much worse than before. And the Kilburn situation is, the Kilburn Market situation is worse than before. You know, it's uncertain future. Some say the market will be demolished, some people say they will be here so we don't know when. They gave us a short notice, we don't know where to put our stock, what to do in the future. The street, to be honest with you, every... unfortunately every single day we see with one or two incidents. Yes, crime is very high. The people are coming out of the bank, you know, they're scared, you know, that's, in several location the money has been taken away, they will knock down the guy, you know, with 500 pounds. You know this, this is three-four incidents happen in a single day. And the only biggest problem we've got, because they resurfaced the road, you know, in the middle of the road there is a big bump; when the people are trying to cross the road, trying to look right and left to cross the road, they forget there is a hump in the middle of the road and so many injuries happen here, just next to the, in front of the bus stop. And I'd

contacted the Brent council, I said: 11:01

you know, this one is really, really bad, you know, dangerous. But this is our

situation: 11:11

we are struggling to pay our rent, unfortunately, nowadays. That's all I can say. Sorry if I have been so negative, but I have to tell the truth.

Emma Jackson: 11:30

Massey reminds us in her essay that "places do not have single, 'unique' identities; they are full of internal conflicts". As we heard from Muhib, these conflicts take on

different forms: 11:42

from issues of badly maintained roads to levels of crime and council plans for redevelopment. And they also include different expectations of the place. Let's hear from Dave, the owner of Giggling Angel, a lovely cafe in Kilburn.

Dave: 11:58

Okay, I've been here for eleven months, my name is Dave, I haven't had a day off for eleven months. I love my shop. I'm trying very hard to make it a success. Kilburn is nice. It could be bruff every now and again, but I do have lovely clientele. I've got students. There are lots of different cultures that are coming in, a lot of, like, we got the Arabs, you've got the English, you got Albanians and lots of like a big mixture, plus the students. And the students, they're not just English, it could be like from all over the world. There's a university called the ICMP. And what else can I say about Kilburn? It's, it's not easy. It's not easy. I mean, it's one of those areas, it's hard to get the money because in some areas you can charge, like, a lot more. But here you have to sort of consider how much you can charge depending on what the area is really.

Agata Lisiak: 13:12

So we see various conflicting narratives here. Some people like that Kilburn hasn't become gentrified. They are pleased that the neighbourhood has kept its character and they appreciate its relative affordability. But for Dave, as a new business owner, this is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the rent is affordable, but on the other, there's only so much he can charge his customers for a coffee. He has to work very hard to make ends meet.

Emma Jackson: 13:41

For Sylvia, the customer we met in Dave's cafe, there were also challenges in inhabiting Kilburn, even though it was an area where she enjoyed hanging out. She emphasised how her experience was shaped by street harassment.

Sylvia: 13:55

Well, I would say is that it's a bit dodgy. And I think if you're going around Kilburn, you need to be, you need to be a bit careful about your pockets. And sometimes it's better to walk around with earphones because it happens - mostly if you're a woman - that people just call you out. And it's just like, even if you don't care, it's just not nice. But apart from that, I really liked the food in here. It's really nice. There are lovely supermarkets and just really cheap as well. So you can go, also if you're a student, it's really good for you. And also the pub scene is really good. So good and bad, I'd say.

Agata Lisiak: 14:46

These gendered experiences of place resonate with Doreen Massey's observation that women's mobility is restricted in the city in a thousand different ways, not only by capital, but also by men.

Emma Jackson: 14:58

How we experience places then is powerfully influenced by many factors such as race, citizenship, class, gender and age. For Massey, Kilburn - and any other place for that matter - is never just one thing, but rather, "a meeting place of jostling, potentially conflicting trajectories". As she wrote, "it is (or ought to be) impossible even to begin thinking about Kilburn High Road without bringing into play half the world, and a considerable amount of British imperialist history". And that, as she insisted, provokes in us a global sense of place.

Agata Lisiak: 15:38

In the passage Emma read out earlier, Massey talks about how the global shapes the local. But global-local relations are hardly a one-way, top-down process. The local also shapes the global, the global is locally produced. Here is Massey speaking about it at London's Serpentine Gallery in 2006.

Doreen Massey: 16:01

I think very often in political campaigning around globalisation, we see the local as the kind of product of the global and the local as the victim of the global, you know, global forces coming into your region and smashing it up in various ways, causing the destruction of local communities, causing the closure of factories and all those kinds of things. And in many places, that is absolutely true. You know, in industrial towns in the north of England, that is the dominant thing that is going on, in many places in the Global South, that is the dominant thing that is going on. But it seems to me if we generalise that story, we end up kind of letting the local off the hook. We're exonerating the local. Because the global isn't produced up there. It's not always somewhere else. It's not some kind of ethereal sphere that just exists nowhere. Globalisation is produced in local places. And what I'm trying to argue for is a geography of the understanding of that. And London is one of the key places in which globalisation is produced.

Emma Jackson: 17:07

London, as Massey wrote in her book World City,"has effects on the wider planet beyond it". "There is a vast geography of dependencies, relations and effects that spreads out from here around the globe". We went to London Docklands to see this up close.

Agata Lisiak: 17:25

We're in Canary Wharf, in a small park between the skyscrapers. It's a bright April day at lunchtime. Lots of office workers are sitting around on astroturf taking a break in the sun. You can also hear some construction noise, birdsong, fountains and planes departing and landing at the nearby City Airport. It feels very casual. And yet, the bank logos displayed on the surrounding buildings remind us that we're in the heart of one of the financial centres of the world.

Emma Jackson: 17:58

This part of London has been instrumental to the British and global economy for centuries. The docklands were first developed in the early 19th century by British slave traders and plantation owners. British colonialism led to a huge increase in traffic on the Thames. This led to overcrowding and theft at the existing wharves. The rich felt that they were losing money and needed a more efficient system. Parliament backed the docklands project, as it was also central to British imperial interests. The name, Canary Wharf, comes from Britain's trade connection with the Canary Islands off the western coast of Africa. The docklands were heavily bombed during the Second World War and never fully recovered from the damage. The ships got bigger, and the Port of London relocated further down the Thames, closer to the sea.

Agata Lisiak: 18:51

In the 1980s, property developers recognised the potential of this working-class postindustrial area of London. As the finance sector grew globally, London's traditional financial district - The City - became too small for the needs of international banks and investment companies. So the British government under Margaret Thatcher supported a plan to transform the docklands into a global financial centre. Doreen Massey was involved in activist battles against this development, but, years later, she admitted that "even the disputed skyscrapers and the maligned Canary Wharf, give a thrill". Here's what she

Emma Jackson reading Doreen Massey: 19:30

"It was with a kind of wrote. guilty delight that with a friend, a visitor from 'the North', I rode round and round some years ago on the Docklands Light Railway. With a day-pass you can treat it like a funfair, it's tinny precariousness making it feel even more like a ride in a fairground in and amongst the amazing concrete and glass. The

ambiguities abound: 19:52

I campaigned against this stuff! Yet even as we object, the very energy, the preposterousness of it all, enthrals... This is a city it is very easy to celebrate".

Agata Lisiak: 20:05

It is easy to celebrate London, isn't it?

Emma Jackson: 20:08

We certainly had a good time visiting the places that Massey wrote about. One of the appealing things about her work is that she always balances taking enjoyment in the city with a concern for the forms of inequality and social injustice that are at its core.

Agata Lisiak: 20:24

London as engines of this project. As we heard in Kilburn, London itself is affected by global forces. But that doesn't mean that all those forces have their origins in faraway places. In some cases, they're just a subway ride away.

Emma Jackson: 20:47

London's imperialist and colonialist legacies are evident on the city streets, and they also reach behind closed doors into our classrooms, living rooms, offices, shops and hospital wards. We reached out to Professor Yasmin Gunaratnam to discuss this in more detail.

Agata Lisiak: 21:06

Yasmin is a sociologist and Professor of Social Justice at King's College London. She is the author of Death and the Migrant and co-author - with Emma Jackson and several other

colleagues - of Go Home: 21:17

The Politics of Immigration Controversies. Yasmin, welcome to Spatial Delight.

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 21:25

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to the conversation

Agata Lisiak: 21:29

For Doreen Massey, any place is always a meeting place, it's always connected to other places. And that's something that your book, Death and the Migrant, also captures in a powerful way. What can we learn about London and its links to elsewhere in the world if we start with the place of the hospital or the hospice?

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 21:51

Yeah, I think that question was really at the centre of Death and the Migrant. So that book took me a very, very long time to write. And I also wanted to write it in a different way - so not the sort of standard academic writing. So I had to do a lot of unlearning. But I think I was really thinking about London as a necropolis. So, what happens when we look at other layers of a city. And for me, illness and death had been very much a part of my life, you know, so I spent most of my 20s caring for my parents. I looked after my father for about seven and a half years and just very practical things about how a city becomes very different when you've got someone in a wheelchair, you know, so my eyes would be always going to where the dropped kerb was, what the terrain was like, those sorts of things. And then St. Christopher's Hospice came into my life when my mum was diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I was just really interested in matters of hospitality, I think, and those are really taken up in different ways. But the hospice movement very much comes out of a history of migrants and hospitality. So the very early mediaeval hospices used to be on routes that pilgrims took, you know, and they would give hospitality to pilgrims and those who were ill, and they often became places where pilgrims would die. And so I was really thinking about why isn't anybody talking about this? You know, so a lot of attention in terms of how many of the early studies and urban ethnographies were done were really taken up by young Black men, focus on young Black men, so very, you know, I think racialised in a way that's being hyper-physical. And so there was this sort of ableism inherent in the ethnographic lens. And

I really wanted to say: 24:03

just hang on a moment, you know, that there are really important matters of race and ethnicity and multiculture going on by the bedside and in the front room and in places which are really overlooked. And so what happens when we bring those matters back in and see the city in a different way? And so particularly when I started doing my work, I think of them, I sort of call them in my mind 'generation exodus', so this is Britain's post-war - post-World War Two - big cohort of migrants, which are often called the 'Windrush generation' now in shorthand. So these were people who came over to Britain enabled by a change in the 1948 Immigration Act, which gave rights of residents really and rights to vote as well to people from independent Commonwealth countries and former colonies. And so my parents were kind of a later part of that, you know, generation of people who were actively recruited, I should say, by Britain to fulfil, you know, labour shortages. So, there were stories, lots of stories of what it was like to come here in the 60s, you know, and late 50s. And these were stories about racism on the streets, racism in the buses, getting jobs, you know, really blatant, and people were thinking about these on their deathbeds, you know.

Emma Jackson: 25:44

Massey asks some uncomfortable and important questions about London and London's relationship to elsewhere, particularly in terms of recruiting workers from the Global South. And she argued that "we can build a responsible 'politics of place beyond place' that asks serious questions about the global impact of the local - a global ethics of the local place". So what, in your opinion, would taking responsibility for London's extractive relationships that are the places look

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 26:14

That's such a big question! So I guess I'll like? sort of answer it in a lowercase register. But I also really love that quote, a 'place beyond place' and, and just coming back to it, I think again to Doreen's sort of analytic and her way of approaching things, it really holds this tension, I

Agata Lisiak: 26:36

Yasmin told us about a book, The Migrant's think, between an absolute fidelity to territory and, you know, to place in that sense, but also that moving into what she would term as the relationality of space, of space always being on the move. And so I really love that restless pacing that she does in her work between really respecting territory and the locatedness of place, but also recognising its entanglements. So one of Paradox, which captures London's entanglements with other Doreen's colleagues at the Open University and who's now a professor there is Parvati Raghuram and she did some work with colleagues on what she calls the 'perverse subsidy', you know, of African workers, care workers, particularly doctors to the UK. I think that global care chain really came up in terms of the pandemic and thinking about place beyond place, really. So I was reading a study of the very early statistics that came out and deaths from COVID 19 among healthcare workers were places. She was impressed by how the author Suzanne Hall predominantly those from racialised minorities. And this brought up questions about them being on the front line. So that's a military metaphor, but you know, who... that really, people from racialised, from global majorities are often shock absorbers for people in the Global North in lots of ways. And that was brought out very clearly in the pandemic. But I also think it's something that's continuing today, you know, you walk into any city hospital, really, and it's predominantly - you can see the visualises these connections, racialisation of the workforce.

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 28:43

And Suzanne does that so beautifully in that book where she works with an artist to create these sorts of world street maps. And they are absolutely stunning. So on a page, like, at the top of the page, you have a street, and then out of it is - laid horizontally across the page is - a map of the world. And they draw threads from the street to, you know, where the shop owner was born. It's just, just comes out onto the map, and you can see this huge, rich multiculture really that she just makes present. And so there's that and then also the politics of regeneration, you know, which feels really important in thinking about what's happening in London at the moment, and how it really affects these small shop owners. And so I think that study really manages to do that work that Doreen kind of set out in terms of thinking about place as being also unbounded.

Agata Lisiak: 29:51

We will talk about urban regeneration projects in our next episode, Cities For the Many, Not the Few. But before we move on, here's a Doreen Massey story that Yasmin kindly shared with us. It's from a conversation they had over dinner in Soho one night,

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 30:07

Doreen was saying, she just mentioned very casually that she never had a washing machine and never would want to own one. Because she saw the laundrette as being a key site in the history of working-class communities, you know. And out of all the discussion and the theory we had, I remember, just really something just knocked me over with that, because that level of thinking through of your everyday life, and then, you know, I can't imagine it was particularly convenient to be doing that. But it was that commitment to be, to really thinking through what community is, what community she'd come from, and you know, seeing a hub of that in different spaces, I think. But yeah, it just struck me as being so much work. And that's typically Doreen.

Emma Jackson: 31:05

We actually went to the launderette on Kilburn High Road and did a bit of recording in there for this podcast.

Yasmin Gunaratnam: 31:11

Oh, great! And what was it like? Was it, were there lots of people there or?

Emma Jackson: 31:17

There were quite a few people there.

Agata Lisiak: 31:19

And they still use coins, which was, I think, the only time in London on this trip that I saw anybody use cash.

Emma Jackson: 31:26

But that's part of why the laundrette is an inclusive place.

Agata Lisiak: So, we leave this episode where we started: 31:30

on Kilburn High Road. Doreen Massey was deeply attached to Kilburn as her home and as a place that inspired her thinking about globalisation. The street had a special place in her life, but it's really just an ordinary street. Perhaps listening to this episode, you recognise some elements that remind you of other places you know, and maybe you feel inspired to think about their global connections. That's a global sense of place in action. Thank you, Emma, for joining me on this adventure.

Emma Jackson: 32:07

It was a delight.

Agata Lisiak: In World City Doreen Massey asks: 32:08

What does London stand for? We'd love to hear your responses to her question. What does London mean to you? What are your experiences of the city? Does your London resemble the buzzy, draining, multicultural city Massey describes in the quote that opened this episode? Please use the form in the show notes to share your thoughts with us. To learn more about the things we discussed today, go to the podcast page at thesociologicalreview.org where you'll find a list of resources. Today's episode was created by Susan Stone, Reece Cox, Adele Martin, Bose Sarmiento and me, Agata Lisiak. Spatial Delight is hosted by the Sociological Review Foundation and funded by the Volkswagen Foundation. Many thanks to my wonderful co-host Emma Jackson and our brilliant guest Yasmin

Gunaratnam. To the people we met on Kilburn High Road: 33:02

Nathan,

Taylor, Muhib, Dave and Sylvia: 33:06

thank you for generously sharing your Kilburn experiences with us. Thank you for listening.